Heaven's Metal Exclusive: Deliverance Interview
The Return of Big “D”
Interview with Deliverance’s Jimmy Brown and Mike Phillips
by Jeff McCormack
Deliverance was well known for putting out cutting-edge melodic thrash ever since they burst onto the scene, even prior to the release of their 1989 full-length self-titled debut. Many albums and many years later, after the 1995 release Camelot in Smithereens, the band disbanded. Six years later, the band reared its head again for a reunion show at the 2001 Cornerstone festival and that same year, released Assimilation. This new CD was met with varied reviews and fan responses, being a slight departure from the straight forward thrash attack, to a mix of heavy music with an electronic feel. Here we are an additional six years later and the boys are back with what they call a true Deliverance reunion CD, As Above – So Below. I tracked down the voice of the band, Jimmy Brown, as well as guitarist Mike Phillips, for this discussion on 2007 and the big “D”!
JM: Jimmy, you appeared in Heaven’s Metal a couple issues ago in an interview discussing your new project Jupiter 6, and at that time there was also much discussion about the new upcoming Deliverance CD that was already in the works. Now that the CD is actually out, let us kind of pick up where that interview left off, and start by telling me the actual member line up for this new Deliverance.
JB: Well, it was me and Mike, obviously, and then our bass player Tim Kronyak. We originally had Kevin Lee (drums) on board with us when we restarted Deliverance last year, and then he unfortunately, due to his work schedule, could only spare a few moments with us at that time. So we sought out another drummer, and at the recommendation of Noah Bernardo from Rescue Records (who managed P.O.D. and is Wuv’s dad) we were introduced to Mike Reed. Mike came in and blew us away with his solid meter and his intolerable approach to solid rock drumming, so he was able to finish what Kevin wasn’t able to. So we started rehearsing a lot with Mike Reed, and then unfortunate circumstances happened, which were actually fortunate for the band; Kevin Lee’s work schedule changed, and he was able to return and commit one hundred percent to the band.
MP: The nice thing about that was that Kevin is in Fresno, where Tim and I are located, so now three fourths of the band was together. Tim and I grew up together here learning Iron Maiden together way back in the day, and now we’ve reunited. Now Jimmy is the only one out of town, being in Vegas, so we just fly him in and out of town for practice since I have a rehearsal/recording studio here.
JB: So that is how it all came to be, and everything is amicable with Mike (Reed), who is actually now working with me in my side project Jupiter 6, and Kevin Lee is back in D, he’s back in the fold. So it is three-fourths original D members, and we have Timmy on board (bass).
JM: In listening to the new tracks that I have heard from the new CD, I am impressed that while they have an updated feel, there is still a very strong return to a more classic Deliverance sound from the first couple CD’s in both a vocal and musical way. With the current trends in thrash leaning to much more aggressive and the extreme music being fairly popular these days, how do you feel this CD will be received … or do you care?
JB: I think me and Mike would both agree, we don’t give a rip… (laughter explodes). We do what we do; we do what feels good to us. We’ve tried to do whatever we felt like doing. Mike and I would sit around and listen to the new stuff … and Mike has his more modern rock/metal project Fasedown … and we were talking and he said he really wanted to just get back to basics with some great melodic, technical, powerful metal. Because when we first got together, we weren’t doing it for a new Deliverance release, were we Mike?
MP: Right. When I first got back in contact with Jimmy—through a mutual friend Jim Chaffin (Fasedown, The Crucified) who told me last year he had just talked to Jimmy—I couldn’t believe it because I had been trying to get a hold of him for a couple of years. So I called Jimmy, told him Fasedown was not really too active, and I was working on some new demo stuff along the lines of prog-metal and thrash type stuff, and asked if he’d be interested in doing some vocals, and he said yes. The next day, Jimmy called me telling me he has been recently getting all these calls for Deliverance shows, and asked if I would be into it. My wife and I talked about it, and about the commitment it would involve, and then told Jimmy I was in. At that point, we were just going to do some shows and pull out the old stuff, but then decided to just go ahead and do a new album.
Back when we parted ways after the Stay of Execution release, I think Jimmy was getting burned out on metal and started going a different way into more progressive types of music, and I was going into a heavier sound, so we were going different directions. Now we’ve come full circle, and we’re back at a killer place, seeing eye-to-eye on so many things, and we’re writing together like madmen now.
JB: Yes, it just meshes now. We both have similar influences, yet also very different influences. Like Mike is into Dream Theater, Megadeth, Neal Morse and the like, and I am more into DA, David Bowie and the Ramones, yet we have many common influences like Iron maiden and Queensryche. So we see eye-to-eye on a lot, yet bring out outside influences in and it works.
JM: So Mike, when you get tired of Deliverance, feel free to consider making a move to Virginia and you and I can put together a prog-metal band. I am a huge, huge fan of Dream Theater, Neal Morse, Transatlantic and the like, but none of my fellow band mates are… (laughter).
JB: Boy, you two could talk forever I bet. I laugh because Mike can never find anyone who likes music like him…but I guess he just did… (laughter).
MP: In my mind, because of the range of influences between Jimmy and me, Deliverance in 2007 is definitely different than anything that has been done before. There are some influences in there, but because our influences differ greatly in places, it blends into making this a more original sounding project.
JM: Right, exactly. Getting back to styles, I mention maybe the new stuff sounding somewhat like the older stuff. Some might say dated, which I disagree with the term. I find people all the time who refer to bands sounding dated, because maybe they have a sound similar to the metal of the 80’s, or nu-metal of the 90’s. There is so much diversity in music these days that I find it kind of close-minded for someone to refer to any sound as being “dated.” I think it comes down to understanding the idea of there being different genres of music. There are still plenty of bands that play music that is reminiscent of a 70’s hard rock … it’s not dated, it is classic rock ... a genre of music. There are tons of bands that play the melodic or power metal sound popular in the 80’s. It is not dated 80’s “hair band” music; it is power/melodic metal … another genre. Black Sabbath’s sound in the late 60’s and early 70’s is very influential on the modern doom metal sound. So to me, it is not about being “dated,” but simply about styles. All that being said, I am glad Deliverance 2007 is not just another trendy screamo/grind/death metal… (laughter).
JB: Well, somebody suggested that actually… (laughter).
MP: Well, there was one particular song where I suggested bouncing some screams opposite Jimmy’s melodic, but then I said, nah, “Jimmy is such a great singer, why ruin it…(more laughter).” I mean, how many singers are gifted with a voice like Jimmy Brown? A lot of people scream the way they do now, because they do not have the talent to sing melodically.
JM: Okay, we saw a reunion record of sorts with 2001’s Assimilation, which proved short-lived. What does a new album in 2007 mean, long term? Was this just a way to fulfill the cry of long-term fans with some new music? Will there be a tour? Is this a real reunion for the long haul, or just another one of Jimmy’s side projects? What does the future hold?
MP: For me, this is exactly what I want to be doing in 07 … this is where I am at … I am so into this. Whatever gigs come up, I will pursue them. However long it lasts, I am loving it and this is where I am at.
JB: For me it is the same thing. It is a lot of fun. I enjoy jamming with Mike, and have always said over the years, even after Mike left; that out of the plethora of guitars players I have worked with … (laughter)…that I always stated my all-time favorite to work with was Mike, simply because of his style. The way he plays compliments everything. He originally joined at an unfortunate time, as we were already established, we had a thing going, but I was already in another place in my head when Mike came into the picture. So poor Mike came in, and said, “Hey I’ve got some great ideas,” and I was like, “That’s nice, save them for another time, because I’ve already got the album written, and I just need you to play.” Yet, even being stifled like that, he was able to take every rhythm I handed him, and just compliments them with these beautiful solos that just blew me away every time I sat and watched him. I was blown away in the studio with him, but when we started playing live, I would get lost in his playing. There are only a few guitar players, for me, that kind of get me lost like a drug trip and Mike’s playing does that for me. The playing of people like Robert Fripp (King Crimson), Earl Slick (Bowie), and Adrian Belew (King Crimson) do that to me; and Phillips’ style does it to me for metal. So to work with him again is a huge pleasure, so I would like to see where this goes. We didn’t do this because of any demand; we did it because we wanted to jam together.
This is also not the end-all-cure-all for us. Mike and I are going to start working on an acoustic project for Mike, and I have my Jupiter 6 and Fearful Symmetry projects. So, Deliverance, to me, is a fringe benefit of Mike and me working together. This is where our roads meet and paths cross musically, and I just love it there.
JM: have you played any live dates yet?
JB: We’ve played a couple sleeper shows here in L.A.
JM: You played the Up From the Ashes show last year.
MP: Yeah, that was with a different drummer, Matt Davis. That show went over very well for us. Turn-out seemed low, but when we started playing the people seemed to swarm, and we weren’t sure where they all came from (laughter).
JB: When we first pulled in, we wondered what we were doing there, it seemed dead. Once our intro music started and we started playing, it is like they came out of the woodwork and we were shocked. It was very awesome.
JM: So, Jimmy, you’ve been in the music scene for more than 20 years, and Deliverance was once considered a fairly extreme metal band for the time. What do you think about the direction music has headed, and some of the more extreme styles these days?
JB: I’m definitely not anti-new music; I’ve always been a person that welcomes change and different styles, as long as it sounds good. I have never classified things as that’s metal, that’s not, etc. I have teenage kids, and I hear all kinds of garbage coming out of their room… (laughter). Most modern bands I kind of dig, as they are kind of throwbacks to the old sounds. I can enjoy it all, Euro music, electronic, etc. That’s where I’m at. I think grunge killed metal, and I still can’t stand it. When I hear some of that music, it makes me so angry I feel like beating people up (laughter).
MP: I do think Chris Cornell is an outstanding singer.
JB: I never really thought Sound Garden grunge, to me they sounded like old Sabbath, but with the Creedence Clearwater guy singing. Chris Cornell is just awesome.
JM: So, Jimmy, I want to change directions some, and this part is more directed at you. You have a quote currently on your myspace site that states, “I am like Fox Mulder from the ‘X Files’ ... I want to believe so bad that I would even go to great lengths to prove and foster my beliefs, even by deceiving myself! But not any longer.” Is that a quote from somewhere or is that your words?
JB: Those are my words.
JM: I have heard comments and concerns about your theological stance. You mentioned in previous interviews your love of knowledge and your history of studying various others manuscripts and religious/philosophical writings. Where do you feel you stand in comparison with modern day traditional Christianity? Is this new Deliverance CD going to be blatantly Christian or do you feel you no longer fit in that category?
JB: I have personally removed myself from what is considered modern day Christianity. I do still love and adhere to the teachings of Jesus with every fiber of my being. I have always considered myself a believer, just not by today’s standards of what is considered a Christian. Mostly because I feel that where it has gone and where it is today—and this isn’t a critical statement, just a heartfelt statement—I just don’t feel it really applies or adheres to what Jesus set out to do with his ministry. I think a lot of things over time were changed and continue to change from year to year, decade to decade, century to century. Things, in the name of progression and, dare I say, evolution, continue to move forward, moving away further and further from what Jesus’ intentions were. That is why I personally have chosen to steer clear of it. Once I found out my hidden Jewish heritage, I delved back into it. Having grown up in a Pentecostal church, for the most part, I was always drawn more to things esoteric. So when I started Judaism after a few years, and discovered things like Kabala—being that it is esoteric, and dare I say, magical—I was immediately drawn to it. I just love all things like that. I study it, and continue to study it for my own personal knowledge, just like I study everything. Just like I said in an interview a couple weeks ago, if I were studying dinosaurs, I would take that to the hilt, studying everything I could about them. If it were talking computers, I would do the same, I love them. So anything I put my hand to that interests me, I will study and study and never stop.
As far as my perspective from lyrical writing, I don’t think I stray in any way at all from the original teachings of Jesus, not at all. People may think it does, but it doesn’t.
The biggest thing I do want to say is that people always look for a rock band to be a ministry, and that is a huge debate. Having grown up in the scene since 1985, and having seen the development of Sanctuary, the rock and metal bands and everybody doing this whole Christian rock thing …meeting these people after all these years, like we’ve been doing lately, I have seen these people that I have not seen in 15-20 years and they are all in the same condition because their church is the rock show and their minister is the Christian rock band. They are not under a church, not under a pastor, not under discipleship and they are not being fed; they just keep looking to bands to be their savior and the bands to be everything to them.
Bottom line is, we are a rock band. If we believe in Jesus and promote Christianity through our music … great, so be it. But that does not make us a ministry. If you need and want a ministry, get plugged into your local church, get under a pastor that is a good honest preacher that wants to disciple you, and make you a disciple to all nations, so you can become that man, that workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly diving the word of truth, like the Apostle Paul says. Don’t look to Deliverance or Tourniquet or Extol or Disciple, because we’re just rock bands, we’re musicians, we have flaws; don’t put us up on a pedestal. To me, you have to go and plug yourself into a local body of believers, and that should be the ministry you’re looking for. If you’re encouraged by the music, great! If you need ministering, go to church.
MP: I do want to chime in a bit. I do agree with a lot of what he is saying. I am a fundamental Christian believer. I attend Calvary Chapel Fresno every Sunday. I am a born-again Christian. I agree with what he is saying. Many people look to bands to be their all-in-all, and for me, I don’t look at bands, I look first to the Bible. Metal is like a movie, it is entertainment. In my music career, we’ve done more one-on-one ministering than ever from the stage as a band.
JM: I can agree with much of that. I have a very similar view of music. I don’t believe in “music ministry” in the sense it is normally discussed. I see Christian music as mainly entertainment, but with the capabilities to be more useful than typical secular music. Music is powerful, and I believe it can be a great tool to speak to someone, both to those within the church as well as without. I enjoy metal, and for edification purposes, I would much rather slip in a Deliverance album, for instance, than say a typical secular thrash band. I believe Christian music can be enjoyed and found edifying, and if I like a certain style, it is great to have a more edifying alternative to listen to. And I do see that it can be a tool that may open a door or provoke a conversation that may plant a seed. But I do not see it as even being close to the idea of ministry that the preaching of the Word is.
MP: It can almost be equated to like PG and rated R movies. Our albums are family friendly, and we’re clean entertainment.
JM: Well, Jimmy, other concerns have arisen about the scantily clad and somewhat erotic art and graphics on your Fearful Symmetry site. People wonder why Jimmy has porn on his site (laughter).
JB: Well, there is a huge difference between pornography and just nudity. Classic artists of old … in art that decorates even some Christian temples in Europe there is nudity because nudity is of God; God made us naked. What would shock people even more is that it is my wife that does all of those graphics—and not at my direction—but on her own. She is an artist, and she sees the naked body as God’s creation. I personally have never had a big problem with pornography. Some people can’t handle it, and some are not as tempted. To me, porn is just silly.
JM: Well, we know the whole appeal to porn is the sound track (wild bass notes mimicked)…(laughter).
MP: My whole take on this … and Jimmy and I don’t see eye to eye on everything, but I am a traditional Christian and some of that stuff trips me out, but I am able to get past it in our friendship.
JM: Well, I guess as long as the new Deliverance CD doesn’t come out filled with Kabala knowledge and teachings, people should be fine right…(laughter).
JB: Well, there are things people don’t realize; like that one of the oldest of the Kabalistic writings is called the Sefer Yetzirah, which predates Jesus by about 1,700 years. Yet there are word-for-word quotes that Jesus uses from this. And you have to go back and ask yourself why.
JM: Obviously, because Jesus was raised a Jew! He was steeped in all of the current Jewish teachings, writings, etc. that we have basically removed from our modern church mindset. I believe the modern church has forgotten that the Bible has thoroughly Jewish roots, and as non-Jewish people we miss or can misunderstand much of what is being said. The Apostles were raised and steeped in Jewish teachings. They knew their Bible, as well as other writings and teachings, inside and out. And of course their Bible, the one they preached about the hope, promises, and even Jesus from, was nothing but the Old Testament we have along with other non-canonical writings. Today, the modern church has such a passé view of the Old Testament that many things can be, and are misunderstood in the New.
JB: Yes, it is a shame. There is some great stuff in some of the other writings, like in the Talmudic writings and the Torah. Like if you pick up the books of the Nevi'im, which is all of the books of the prophets assembled together, there is cool stuff in there that is not in the standard Old Testament. It is a shame, and I get bummed about it, but that is kind of what turns me on about these Kabalistic studies and stuff. When I started seeing the similarities and what was going on, that was cool. Then you get people that come up to me and saying “what is all this Yahweh crap?” and I can’t believe it. I think to myself, how can someone put those two words together in a sentence? Yahweh is a holy name, and Jews won’t even say the name; they always say Hashem, which means “the name.” Even Jesus, in all his teachings and prayers, refers to God as “Hallowed be thy name, Father glorify thy name.” All of this emphasis is on God’s name, because God’s name actually means something in Hebrew, yet we’ve all somehow decided to throw all of that out and people have forgotten that Jesus was Jewish.
Paul said study to show yourself approved, rightly dividing the word of truth. What Word was he talking about … his own? No, he was talking about the Torah, but hey, we’ve thrown it all out.
JM: Well, it reminds me of such verses as 2 Tim. 3:16, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine … etc.” Of what Scripture were they speaking? Obviously the Old Testament, since the New was not even written or assembled.
JB: Right!
JM: I wrote an article years ago in a newsletter, and the article was entitled “Don’t Forget History.” I dealt with understanding the Bible. I commented that in order to fully understand, for instance, the book of Corinthians, you have to put yourself into the culture and mind-set of what was happening in first century Corinth. You can’t look at it from a 21st century perspective, with modern understandings, and fully grasp and apply what is being said. It was written to a specific literal group, at a certain literal time, dealing with specific literal issues, with application we can draw from. But I got quite a few people who responded to me negatively, asking me to drop them from the list, saying history is not relevant. It is so sad to have people feel that way.
JB: Exactly! So much is lost that way.
JM: Well, from this point through the rest of the discussion, the conversation kind of spiraled out of control, delving into all kinds of debauchery, joking, picking on each other’s musical favorites. So I will cut the official interview off here, and encourage you all to grab the new 2007 release by Deliverance, available now everywhere really good music is sold...
©2007 HM Magazine - All Rights Reserved
©2007 Heaven's Metal Fanzine - All Rights Reserved
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Resurrection Band, Daniel Band, Leviticus, Bloodgood, Saint, Sacred Warrior, Neon, etc...
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